Talk:Thomas Jefferson

Removing Content on Sally Hemings from Minister to France Section

"According to Sally's son, Madison Hemings, 16-year-old Sally and Jefferson began a sexual relationship in Paris, where she became pregnant. Madison indicated his mother agreed to return to the United States only after Jefferson promised to free her children when they came of age."

I removed the content above, but an editor reverted me. It's hearsay with no evidence, and few historians emphasize this claim, so it does not belong in this article. It can go in the article on Madison Hemings himself, and possible Sally Hemings, but not Jefferson's unless a significant number of reliable sources back it up. Bill Williams 00:37, 13 April 2026 (UTC) Bill Williams 00:37, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

That’s interesting because it certainly seems to be about Jefferson if it’s his potential child. Lark Tergeson (talk) 14:28, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

It's hearsay (Madison said that Sally said) and Madison Hemings published it 84 years after the alleged event (which he wasn't even there for). There's no evidence of it, and it is not a significant detail that historians discuss with relation to Sally Hemings, because there is much more evidence (albeit still circumstantial) of what happened in America than in France. Bill Williams 15:49, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

Oh I see now Lark Tergeson (talk) 16:00, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

Still very interesting though… what’s your personal opinion on it? Lark Tergeson (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

The content you removed was indeed unsatisfactory, because it relied on a WP:PRIMARY source. The judgment as to how good this or that primary source is, is supposed to be made by the author of a secondary source, not by us un-credentialed tertiary encyclopedia editors.

However it's not hard to find a secondary source that supports the same claim. Meacham's book is a recent (2012-2013), popular, well-reviewed one-volume full-length biography. I couldn't ask for more. Looking around other sources, I think Meacham is not different from most, just more convenient. The Miller Center says, "Most historians now believe that Jefferson and Hemings had a long-term sexual relationship."

Madison Hemings lived in the household with his mother, his siblings, and Jefferson for his whole childhood and adolescence. You could compare this story with the story of Warren Harding's alleged child. There is really nothing to the story except Nan Britton's book and the DNA testing, but various sources, and Wikipedia, blithely say that Harding was the child's father.

There is quite a bit more to the story of Jefferson's children; for one thing, there were six of them, four of whom lived into adulthood. Also, they all lived with Jefferson. Unlike (for instance) West Ford, who died in 1858, Madison Hemings lived past the end of the Civil War, by which point slavery was no longer legal. So in publishing his family history, he wasn't risking grave legal consequences for people he knew or their relatives. Bruce leverett (talk) 01:00, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

Little of what you said has to do with my point. I'm referring specifically to the claim that Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson had a sexual relationship in Paris, of which there is nothing to back it up (just hearsay from almost a century later by someone who wasn't there), and therefore historians place little emphasis on this claim. I agree that there is merit to mentioning Sally Hemings in this biography, I'm saying there is no merit to mentioning her alleged relationship with Jefferson in Paris. The supposed secondary source that you're citing, Meacham, just directly quotes the primary source (Madison Hemings, i.e. reciting hearsay) and provides no further evidence, and in the 366 page book it devotes less than a page (a few paragraphs scattered across page 216 to 218) to the claim. An actual secondary source would analyze this claim to determine its merits, or compile other primary sources that back it up, instead of repeating it with no evidence. This belongs in Sally Hemings' and Madison Hemings' articles, with the context that it's baseless, but it doesn't belong in Jefferson's article. Bill Williams 05:31, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

The Wikipedia policy that you cited as important, WP:PRIMARY, literally says:

"Secondary source provides thought and reflection based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources. Secondary sources are not necessarily independent sources. They rely on primary sources for their material, making analytic or evaluative claims about them.

However, Meacham provides zero thought, reflection, analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, or ideas relating to Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson's alleged relationship in Paris. All that Meacham does is repeat what the primary source says, so he isn't a secondary source:

In this tempestuous time, Jefferson apparently began a sexual relationship with his late wife’s enslaved half sister." (Page 216)

According to their son Madison Hemings's later account, Sally, who had become "Mr. Jefferson's concubine," was pregnant when Jefferson was preparing to return to the United States. "He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred," Madison Hemings said. "She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved," said Madison Hemings "So she refused to return with him." She, not he, was in control. It must have seemed surreal, unthinkable, even absurd. For the first time in his life, perhaps, Jefferson was truly in a position of weakness at a moment that mattered to him. So he began making concessions to convince Sally Hemings to come home to Virginia. "To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years," Madison Hemings said. Sally Hemings agreed. "In consequence of his promise, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia," said Madison Hemings. "Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston-three sons and one daughter." (Pages 217 and 218).

Highly-viewed Wikipedia articles on important historical figures like Jefferson cannot mention claims that lack evidence and are only mentioned in primary sources; a historian has to actually evaluate the claim and its legitimacy. Meacham clearly did not evaluate the the claim that Jefferson and Sally Hemings had a sexual relationship in Paris, and clearly did not evaluate its legitimacy. Hence the claim should be removed from this article. Bill Williams 05:46, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

Couldn’t you just say “alleged sexual relationship”? An alleged rendezvous in Paris with somebody who claimed to have your child seems like something that should be in your biography, even if it isn’t true, so why don’t we just say “alleged” and are really heavy on the fact that it’s all speculation anyway. Lark Tergeson (talk) 13:05, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

It has been several years since I read Gordon-Reed's book, The Hemingses of Monticello, and I don't have a copy handy right now, but my recollection is that it has quite a bit of commentary of the kind that I think would interest you, about the circumstances of Jefferson's and Hemings's time together in Paris and subsequent time at Monticello, and what might have motivated them, or not motivated them, to the course of action that they took. If you want to do a deep dive into this, that's where to start.

Madison's story looks fine to me; it offers a plausible explanation of how the relationship started. It's legitimate to ask whether to include a story like that in this encyclopedia article. Jefferson isn't notable for his children; the children are notable because of him. Many of our biographical articles have a "personal life" section that mentions things whose inclusion in the article is basically optional. But as for the actual truth or falsity, I am not concerned about the lack of "evidence". If Madison's mother told him this story, that's as much sourcing as we can normally expect about a couple's courtship and the start of their family. Written records of births, in family bibles or church records or government birth certificates, aren't any more tangible than Madison's written record of what his mother told him. Bruce leverett (talk) 13:49, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

I believe this discussion is worth an RfC so that a greater number of editors weighs in and we can form a binding consensus. I agree with what you said, except none of it means that we should be mentioning it in the article. Yes, it may be true, but it is not particularly noted by historians and it has no evidence to it. The sources cited are not reliable for the claim either, because they aren't secondary sources as I mentioned above; they provide no analysis of the legitimacy of the claim, they just parrot the claim and move on. Hence mentioning the Madison Hemings claim violates the basic tenets of WP:DUE. Bill Williams 01:59, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

RFC is one way to try to get more eyes on this discussion; or if you prefer, an alternative would be to notify the various WikiProjects that are interested in this article, by posting to their talk pages.

The question of whether to discuss Sally Hemings, and where to, in this article, has been discussed before in this talk page. I have not gone through all the archives, of which there are currently 44, but I suspect that the general topic of Sally Hemings appears in almost all of them. Bruce leverett (talk) 02:03, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

References

2nd Vice President in first Paragraph

Jefferson is the only VPOTUS to have no mention of his service in the first paragraph. Yes, POTUS and the Declaration are both much more notable, but even short-serving VPOTUSes like Roosevelt, Tyler and Truman get a mention of that role. So I propose a few rewrites:

1. "Thomas Jefferson (April 13 [O.S. April 2], 1743Template:SpndJuly 4, 1826) was the third president of the United States from 1801 to 1809. He was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence. Also serving as the second vice president from 1797 to 1801, Jefferson was a leading proponent of democracy, republicanism, and natural rights, and produced formative documents and decisions at the state, national, and international levels."

2. "Thomas Jefferson (April 13 [O.S. April 2], 1743Template:SpndJuly 4, 1826) was the third president of the United States from 1801 to 1809. He was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence and also the second vice president from 1797 to 1801. Jefferson was a leading proponent of democracy, republicanism, and natural rights, and produced formative documents and decisions at the state, national, and international levels."

TheSilksongPikmin (talk | contribs) 13:09, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

Seems an uncontroversial change. Version one is superior - version two almost sounds like he's 'equally' notable for authoring the DoI and for being vice president. The first version clearly distinguishes the two. One note though, I'd recommend "second vice president" over "2nd vice president", so it's consistent style with his designation as "third president". cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 18:24, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

For sure, yep it should be second not 2nd; don't know how I messed that up! (will edit) TheSilksongPikmin (talk | contribs) 18:26, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

Added it and the more important 'Founding Father' link (Founding Father was removed yesterday, nobody caught it). Randy Kryn (talk) 22:33, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson was a diplomat ~2026-24439-21 (talk) 02:00, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2026

Template:Edit semi-protected The grammar of the line:

In Spring 1791, Jefferson was suffering from migraines and tiring of the in-fighting with Hamilton, and he and Madison departed for a vacation in Vermont.[135]

Should be altered, potentially to:

In Spring 1791, Jefferson was suffering from migraines and tiring of the in-fighting with Hamilton, and so he and Madison departed for a vacation in Vermont.[135] Mossy Bass (talk) 13:58, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

 Done Changed to "with Hamilton, so he and Madison", along with some other minor changes. Day Creature (talk) 19:19, 26 April 2026 (UTC)